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Naval Warfare and Trade
I'm going to give the awesome idea of razoreqx a little upgrade here, i believe this can become a really really great experience and make LIF:MMO even more exciting. I know, this is some HEFTY piece of programming and it is most likely only doable post-release, but please keep it in mind!
That is some awesome idea right there!
So, my extension of his is as follows:
Skills required
See "shipbuilding" for shipbuilding. But, naval skills could be included in the secondary skills tab, including: Rowing (maybe general actions) and Sailing, both of which would influence maximum speeds, and Steering, which would affect the turning speed and radius of a ship. Any other skills I tried to include in the existing skill tree. Naval-related skills would include Fishing/Hunting, Procuration, Warfare Engineering and Piety.
Claiming, binding and capture
If possible at all, the smallest vessels would need to be claimed like a coop to be usable, an the larger ones would have binding slots just like houses or the coming siege tents. Larger ships could include facilities for cooking, maintenace and alchemy/healing. If the whole crew is killed, all slots should be emptied, so the enemy could capture and use the ship.
Battle and damage model
To destroy or damage a ship, you would need to use the ram of another warship for medium damage, siege weaponry (either from the shore or a capital warship) for high damage, and fire arrows/naphtha grenades for low damage, but the chance to light it on fire.
Crew
The crew of a ship forms like a unit, making abilities possible, as well as using anything on the ship without alignment loss.
Shipbulding
This could be implemented in the carpentry skill and would need to be divided into stages:
The first stage would be the hull. The hull itself would be crafted like a piece of furniture and would, once completed, have the same properties as the building sites of structures. Then a tailor needs to craft a sail from rope and cloth (tailoring lvl 60), which then should be dropped into the hull and be "hammered in" to craft the final vessel.
For progression and ship types, i propose something like this:
lvl 60 small vessels like canoes/rowboats, requiring some boards, nails and/or bone glue (waterproofing), and a pair of oars (crafted with the knife from a billet, carpentry lvl 0), these could be equipped on the respective sailor like a hammer or so. High speed, almost no combat capabilities except boarding.
lvl 70 a medium sized fishing boat with sails for 4 sailors, requiring boards, nails, and building logs in the first stage, and sails in the second. To use that boat, a character would have to be at least lvl 60 in fishing hunting and have a net (from rope, required tailoring lvl 30) equipped. Low to medium speed, almost no combat capabilities except boarding.
lvl 80 a small warship, e.g. some kind of viking-like longboat for up to 7 sailors and armed with a ram - the sailors could of course board an enemy vessel or shoot with bows/crossbows if so desired - requiring boards, nails, bone glue and building logs in the first stage, the hull, then rope, sails and common ingots (the ram) in the second stage.; For rowing and a ram attack, the sailors would need to have oars equipped. Medium speed when under sail, high speed when rowed.
Too at lvl 80 a small cargo ship (program-wise a floating small warehouse, i would say) for 6 sailors and built from the same materials as the warship, but with door modules instead of common ingots for the cargo bays. Low to medium speed, almost no combat capabilities except boarding, but higher defensive potential than a fisherman due to higher HP and better crew defense (higher railing, for example. As a special ability, this ship could be rowed AND sailed for a short period of time like the "FLEE!" ability - very high speed! At sea, this needs to be longer than ashore, like 10 minutes.
lvl 90 a medium warship, e.g. a galley for up to 12 sailors, which is built and used like the small warship, but is more capable, like having a hoarding or similar. A slot could be added for a warfare engineer, who could use siege ladders for boarding. Medium speed, but lower than the small warship.
lvl 100 a capital warship or galleon for 20 sailors and 2 warfare engineers, armed with siege weaponry like trebuchets, requiring the first two stages like the others, and the parts for the trebuchets in the third. Low speed, exceptional combat performance, due to boarding defenses, hoardings, trebuchets and high number of boarding personnel.
Too at lvl 100 a capital merchant ship (a floating large warehouse) for 12 sailors, much more durable than the small one and with added defensive capabilities like hoardings and boiling oil for close quarters (boarding defense and chance of setting the enemy on fire). Low speed, but not too bad combat capabilities.
Balance and battle performance
Balance-wise I would thus conclude, that
a capital warship in a 1v1-battle, can defeat any other ship, if not caught by surprise (at night, for example) and boarded;
a medium warship could defeat any smaller ship, but would be evenly matched against a capital merchant.
a capital merchant should not be preyed upon by anything smaller than a medium warship.
a small cargo ship can not defeat a small warship, but can outrun it for an hour or so (depending on mechanics like cooldown etc.), so it becomes very time-consuming to hunt down when it is competently sailed, giving the crew the possibility to seek shelter in a harbor or call in reinforcements.
Fishermen need to stay close to shore, unless being guarded by a warship (I'm thinking of fishing fleets here, just like mining fleets in EVE Online). To give an incentive to use them anyway, i support the ideas of ape21675:
and Mortdecai:
especially whaling is genius, I think that Mortdecai means naphtha, which would be good, but maybe make it even possible to gather flux and flavor from whales (or at least some ingredients from which a herbalist can create them), at Fishing/Hunting lvl.75 and 90, repectively.
I hope you'd like naval production, trade and warfare implemented as much as I do, so please vote up and like, or give feedback and comment if not, or you have better ideas in mind than those.
Sincerely, Mirakulix von Andechs
I'm going to give the awesome idea of razoreqx a little upgrade here, i believe this can become a really really great experience and make LIF:MMO even more exciting. I know, this is some HEFTY piece of programming and it is most likely only doable post-release, but please keep it in mind!
razoreqx wrote:
Travel by ship. Ive been working on a MOD but this would be much smoother compiled in the engine. Ships that are not mounted but more like a house. You can freely move about the ship and interface with various objects.
Merchant ships
Hulk class
Sailboats
Sloops (pirate ships)
Rowboats and canoe.
That is some awesome idea right there!
So, my extension of his is as follows:Skills required
See "shipbuilding" for shipbuilding. But, naval skills could be included in the secondary skills tab, including: Rowing (maybe general actions) and Sailing, both of which would influence maximum speeds, and Steering, which would affect the turning speed and radius of a ship. Any other skills I tried to include in the existing skill tree. Naval-related skills would include Fishing/Hunting, Procuration, Warfare Engineering and Piety.
Claiming, binding and capture
If possible at all, the smallest vessels would need to be claimed like a coop to be usable, an the larger ones would have binding slots just like houses or the coming siege tents. Larger ships could include facilities for cooking, maintenace and alchemy/healing. If the whole crew is killed, all slots should be emptied, so the enemy could capture and use the ship.
Battle and damage model
To destroy or damage a ship, you would need to use the ram of another warship for medium damage, siege weaponry (either from the shore or a capital warship) for high damage, and fire arrows/naphtha grenades for low damage, but the chance to light it on fire.
Crew
The crew of a ship forms like a unit, making abilities possible, as well as using anything on the ship without alignment loss.
Shipbulding
This could be implemented in the carpentry skill and would need to be divided into stages:
The first stage would be the hull. The hull itself would be crafted like a piece of furniture and would, once completed, have the same properties as the building sites of structures. Then a tailor needs to craft a sail from rope and cloth (tailoring lvl 60), which then should be dropped into the hull and be "hammered in" to craft the final vessel.
For progression and ship types, i propose something like this:
lvl 60 small vessels like canoes/rowboats, requiring some boards, nails and/or bone glue (waterproofing), and a pair of oars (crafted with the knife from a billet, carpentry lvl 0), these could be equipped on the respective sailor like a hammer or so. High speed, almost no combat capabilities except boarding.
lvl 70 a medium sized fishing boat with sails for 4 sailors, requiring boards, nails, and building logs in the first stage, and sails in the second. To use that boat, a character would have to be at least lvl 60 in fishing hunting and have a net (from rope, required tailoring lvl 30) equipped. Low to medium speed, almost no combat capabilities except boarding.
lvl 80 a small warship, e.g. some kind of viking-like longboat for up to 7 sailors and armed with a ram - the sailors could of course board an enemy vessel or shoot with bows/crossbows if so desired - requiring boards, nails, bone glue and building logs in the first stage, the hull, then rope, sails and common ingots (the ram) in the second stage.; For rowing and a ram attack, the sailors would need to have oars equipped. Medium speed when under sail, high speed when rowed.
Too at lvl 80 a small cargo ship (program-wise a floating small warehouse, i would say) for 6 sailors and built from the same materials as the warship, but with door modules instead of common ingots for the cargo bays. Low to medium speed, almost no combat capabilities except boarding, but higher defensive potential than a fisherman due to higher HP and better crew defense (higher railing, for example. As a special ability, this ship could be rowed AND sailed for a short period of time like the "FLEE!" ability - very high speed! At sea, this needs to be longer than ashore, like 10 minutes.
lvl 90 a medium warship, e.g. a galley for up to 12 sailors, which is built and used like the small warship, but is more capable, like having a hoarding or similar. A slot could be added for a warfare engineer, who could use siege ladders for boarding. Medium speed, but lower than the small warship.
lvl 100 a capital warship or galleon for 20 sailors and 2 warfare engineers, armed with siege weaponry like trebuchets, requiring the first two stages like the others, and the parts for the trebuchets in the third. Low speed, exceptional combat performance, due to boarding defenses, hoardings, trebuchets and high number of boarding personnel.
Too at lvl 100 a capital merchant ship (a floating large warehouse) for 12 sailors, much more durable than the small one and with added defensive capabilities like hoardings and boiling oil for close quarters (boarding defense and chance of setting the enemy on fire). Low speed, but not too bad combat capabilities.
Balance and battle performance
Balance-wise I would thus conclude, that
a capital warship in a 1v1-battle, can defeat any other ship, if not caught by surprise (at night, for example) and boarded;
a medium warship could defeat any smaller ship, but would be evenly matched against a capital merchant.
a capital merchant should not be preyed upon by anything smaller than a medium warship.
a small cargo ship can not defeat a small warship, but can outrun it for an hour or so (depending on mechanics like cooldown etc.), so it becomes very time-consuming to hunt down when it is competently sailed, giving the crew the possibility to seek shelter in a harbor or call in reinforcements.
Fishermen need to stay close to shore, unless being guarded by a warship (I'm thinking of fishing fleets here, just like mining fleets in EVE Online). To give an incentive to use them anyway, i support the ideas of ape21675:
ape21675 wrote:
Also add being able to fish from these boats. If you were to make a little fishing vessel to row out and catch different types of fish would be pretty cool. And maybe make it so the farther out you are from land the percentage of actually catching fish goes up.
and Mortdecai:
Mortdecai wrote:
O maybe even some whaling for lamps and stuff that would be awesome!
especially whaling is genius, I think that Mortdecai means naphtha, which would be good, but maybe make it even possible to gather flux and flavor from whales (or at least some ingredients from which a herbalist can create them), at Fishing/Hunting lvl.75 and 90, repectively.
I hope you'd like naval production, trade and warfare implemented as much as I do, so please vote up and like, or give feedback and comment if not, or you have better ideas in mind than those.
Sincerely, Mirakulix von Andechs
Like
Le_Profyteur, alexgvarela94, illusiveenergy and 33 others likes this post.
Comments (17)
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Accepted Answer
0Here is the link to the original post from razoreqx: http://lifeisfeudal.com/discussions/question/boats-and-sailing-vessels -
Accepted Answer
7If were going to add ships of that size then we should probably be able to make them at some sort of dock or shipyard.Like razoreqx and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
Accepted Answer
1ape21675 wrote:
If were going to add ships of that size then we should probably be able to make them at some sort of dock or shipyard.
That would definitely be great! But, at this point, i tried to keep the required coding effort as little as possible (Yea, I know, compared to ships like that a building is probably negligible...).
As the question came up what would happen to ships if the crew logged off, I see three (or two and a half) possible ways:
A) the ship behaves like a settlement, meaning it is still there but inaccessible for thieves etc. What this means concerning attacks, is still to be determined, for I don't know yet, how town attacks/sieges will be handled in the MMO, and especially if the suggestion of having log-off-guards will be implemented. Alternatively or additionally, a ships crew...
B) ...could pay an anchoring fee in a nearby harbor, so the ship is temporarily added to the protection of that harbors claim and can therefor only be attacked if the port itself is attacked. In this model, ships at sea could either bevahe like A), OR be completely vulnerable if found, meaning, that a ship either needs to dock or find a really good hiding place.
While docked, a ship in such harbor should be accessible to the local country, making theft possible. That would add some possibilities to the political proceedings: The formation of well-renowned trading ports, who would guarantee a ships safetyon one side, and "pirate bays", who either rob everyone or charge enormous fees, on another. Even bribing a neutral city to steal cargo from enemy ships could become a frequent ly used means of politics; and many more. So, I favor variant B) with ships being totally vulnerable if at sea.
C) Finally, a ship could just vanish like a players character, which would be no fun at all, but is probably the easiest way to implement at this time.Like razoreqx and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
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Accepted Answer
1Thanks for adding my suggestion
I think on the logging off part number 2 seems like a good idea although theres a problem. What happens to the ship when everyone dismounts off it to go raid a village. Does it sit there to be stolen or does it vanish?
Im pretty sure man of wars did not exist during the medieval times. Not saying I don't like it just political correctness. I think the Birlinn is similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/medieval_ships
Also on combat it should be hand to hand skill based combat or bows. So that if your a good crew you could fend off the biggest of vessels. Im mostly excited about nord stuff VIKINGS for the win -
Accepted Answer
0Love the feedback and definitely complements my ideas on water travel and combat. We also planned NPC pirate encounters to interfere with trade pact routes as a way to gather players to fight not only with each other but as groups against NPC forces.
The ships I've created have mount points for cannons. Each encounter an NPC pirate ship is victories not only loots the opposing ship but strips it of cannons to add to its own arsenal. The longer a pirate ship survives the more skilled the crew and fleet thus the more pirate hunters it will take to destroy the encounter or instance.. -
Accepted Answer
0Oh. Just to toss a bone out there. I got the idea from another mod which uses google earth of the player map which can zoom in. It updates the from the SQL database locations of claims, resources, combat and roads.. I created a table for marking road systems as they're added.
I also am working on another feature for spot reports from players. We hope the players not only use this to navigate the map but also provide safe passage from war zones including NPC pirate activity and land raiding parties. Its actually coming along quite nicely.
Its been my experience pvp can attract more players of different play styles to support a war effort but not be involved in the pvp directly but not without total risk. Something about dieing to another player upsets some people but an NPC is an acceptable death.. Why not capture both audiences. -
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0I think that the best way would be to make a port building on land near the coast and give it a AOE kind of effect and then give an ability in authority along the lines of dock. So if a person uses dock in the AOE of a port the ship is then no longer a ship but some what like a horse is in the stables and the ship and port interface would look somewhat like a stables interface with the ship being the horse and instead of a breeding pop out a loading/offloading pop out. so when someone goes up to the port they right click and get a option of "ship cargo" or "port" port would display the ships in port while cargo will display only the cargo of the ship in the on load/offload pull out. and from there you could load the ship full of cargo or unload the ship of cargo. the ships themselves would be safe when in port however if the port is destroyed. So go the ships. I also believe there should be a ship not intended for commerce or war or fishing. more of a useful versatile ship. with the equivalent of workshops. a carpenters quarters, healers quarters. A forge on a ship dose not seem like a good idea. but maybe this ship could run in shallow waters and go fast. maybe not have super high railings but on the other hand that would allow for not nets but being close enough to the water to fish. perhaps even adding a few "tanning barrels" that may take longer than a tanning tub but can be used on boats. Perhaps a row boat that allows for going ashore for hunting or making stops or if the ship should taken something to get to shore on. and a galley to prepare food. This would be a nice ship to add as it would complement the fleet well with its many uses. It could also serve as a scout ship. and would be good to accompany other ships as a little extra fire power from the people on board. a scout to check the waters ahead or patrol around a harbor. -
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